LGA Voices

Jenny Rowlands: So we're here at the LGA Conference 2026 and this is our new series of podcasts and it's something we are excited to bring to you and it's powered by Milbank. So we're going to start with one of my colleagues here at the LGA, one of our assistant directors. Hazel Summers, and I wanted to ask you, Hazel, about how do you think colleagues are managing to deliver reform and deliver against the pressures of day-to-day services and what is it you're hearing from our colleagues across the countries?

Hazel Summers: Thank you Jenny, so what I would say is that my work is predominantly in the care and health space and what we are hearing from colleagues is many different things.Some of it's to do with regulation, we've been regulated through CQC for the last which was new for the sector, so we are getting quite a few themes through that of work that we are doing around supporting carers, around supporting integration, neighbourhood health quite big on the agenda, as well as doing quite basic things around safeguarding and we also do quite a lot of work around mental health active form and various other areas.

We cover a wide range of issues that are coming through us through councils. Some of it is kind of basic day-to-day things that we need to do to work within the Care Act and the legislation that we have, but some of it is really around the neighbourhood health agenda and how we can work together at a very local place in neighbourhoods.

So it's a combination of those things.We have just won, and we are really pleased, under the 10-year health plan, the public health contract to do public health peer reviews.
So we are starting those this year and we do more broadly get asked a lot to do peer reviews, you know we have our corporate peer challenges, in my area we've done safeguarding reviews, we have children's reviews, peer reviews and also you know we're going to have these public health peer reviews. And councils find them really, really useful to assure themselves that they are making progress both in the day-to-day work that they do, but also under the reform area as well, I think, to make sure that the data that has been presented is telling the story about the progress councils are making. And I do think that we have done a lot of work to support councils in really thinking about their governance, to make sure that they are supporting their own improvement journey.And then I think we can come along to say, is what you're seeing accurate, are you in the right place, what else can we do to support you to move those things forward?

Jenny Rowlands: Yeah, I haven't been here long, but I've heard so much about us being their kind of trusted partner to give that assurance and to do the kind of rapid learning across the country of where one thing's working. When you were talking, I was really interested to hear even more about the kind of communities and neighbourhood work.
And I know that's something that's part of the theme of the LGA Conference this year and something you care about a lot. Can you just tell us a bit more?

Hazel Summers: So I think what I wanted to say about communities, I was thinking about it in the widest possible way. And I think if you think about the financial pressures councils are under, if you think about the incredibly complex pieces of work that need to be done against the background of a lot of moving parts, ICB's changing, local
government reform, devolution, all of those things that councils, councillors, chief officers, frontline staff, etc, are dealing with. What I do think councils are really brilliant at is knowing thei communities, really, really knowing their communities. And that is local members, isn't it? That is local members knowing what people in their wards want, need, and know best about what needs to be delivered to make things better. So there's a few things I was thinking about, you know, like having good parks. How important it is for good parks, best start centres for children, you know, those things that really, really allow people to work together. Working with community groups, faith groups, working with people who really, know their communities in order to develop something that makes sense for different communities.
I live in a city, I won't say which one, it's quite popular at the moment. But there are numerous neighbourhoods and they are all different, all special and unique with different cultures, with different needs ones.But everybody wants some of the same things, which is a decent home, a job, a good school for your children to go to, somewhere where you can have friends, where your family are nearby. That really important bit about community and how we can develop that. And we in councils are brilliant at that, really, really brilliant at that. And I think we in the LGA can support some of that if you think if we come back to the neighbourhood healthy, only because I'm very familiar with it, is that that work that we can do with the voluntary community sector and communities to make those neighbourhood health and care centres, those health and wellbeing centres, the real things that we want for people in communities who can access early intervention, they can access a GP when they need it, they can access community services, but they also can link up to social care and they can link up to the voluntary community sector that can support them. To me, I'm really passionate about the community I live in.
And I think everybody wants it. And I've heard today many things about people just want to live in a place they call home. And I think that's our mantra.

Jenny Rowlands: Oh, thanks, Hazel. I just want to say the other thing that I found amazing about particularly the adult social care world is how it teaches us to really listen deeply to the person in front of us and how often they have the answer into what they need and how they need it and when they need it. We just heard from Baroness Casey around this and our kind of super strength is to respond as human beings to each other. And that's also what builds on the kind of neighbourhood and community sense that you're talking about. 

Hazel Summers: Yeah, I think that thing about relationships and that relational work about equal partners. And I think we in adult social care are good at co-production and working with individuals. I think we can learn from what we have learned. I don't think we're brilliant at it. I think we we are on a journey of getting better at it. But if you put people at the heart of a community, then I think I think we can work some magic. Thank you.
Jenny Rowlands: Thank you, Hazel.

Louise Gittins: So, Jenny, a bit of role reversal here. You are in the lovely pink velvet seat now.  And you've moved to the teal coloured seat.
And I'm going to be doing the interviews this time and looking forward to hearing what you're going to say. My name is Councillor Louise Gittins. I'm the outgoing chair of the Local Government Association and leader of Cheshire West and Chester Council. And today I'm joined at our podcast place by Councillor Eamonn O'Brien, who is the new chair of the LGA and Jenny Rowlands, who is the interim chief exec of the LGA. So great to have you here.
And I'm going to ask you some... Well, I thought we'd have a chat about some of the things that you've been saying since you've been at conference.

And I think, Eamonn, you talked in your speech about local government being the only way that national government can deliver its objectives. If you were to go to government with three priorities, what do you think they'd be?

Councillor Eamonn O'Brien: We can't escape the fact that, as you'll know, funding and financial sustainability is a massive issue for all councils.
So I think we've got to continue the good work that you and the organisation have done over the past few years to get that fair funding working for all councils. I think a large part of that is our contribution to make to the ongoing conversations on adult social care. And we've just heard from Baroness Casey about the work that she's doing to try and bring forward a route and branch review and an engagement with the public around that.

So that's, to me, a second big priority, very much connected with the first.And I think the third one is we've got a big opportunity in devolution and the changes in ways in which local government is set up. There's some challenges and risks in that, but we've got to make sure that they are managed to the point where every bit of England is making the most of those opportunities.

So they're three pretty big ones I'll be working on and looking forward to it.
Louise Gittins: Yes, the devolution and LGR is a big thing, isn't it? Steve Reid mentioned that in his speech. I suppose Jenny, your role as Interim Chief Exec is making sure that councils have the support that they need as they go through that process. Is there anything that you've sort of picked up on since you've been here that you feel they need, that we need to help them with?

Jenny Rowlands: Well, I think we knew for a while that councils moving forward in devolution or local government reorganisation, particularly at the moment, know what they need to deliver and are excited in some places about what they need to deliver, but want to have a more equal conversation about how we deliver our capacity, how we deliver and deliver public service reform at the same time, so we create better councils, better connected to our neighbourhoods and our communities.
And I thought that the Secretary of State was very clear about that, about how we are good at local government level of joining up and talking about how services delivered for the person in front of us, but how perhaps Whitehall now needs to move to that place as well. And I think he said it several times and I think we're making great progress there, but we know from our own conversations with leaders and chief executives that the power of convening for LGA in particular and having real time to talk about the practical steps and that level of detail that

Louise Gittins: Yeah, absolutely. And I was interested when Louise Casey was talking, she was really emphasising the importance of us as being closest to our communities and how not everyone within the department actually understand that. So I suppose from a political perspective, being the cross-party chair of the LGA, how do you think we could be better getting those messages through to governments about our importance in that convener of place, but importantly, bringing everyone together across departments?

Councillor Eamonn O'Brien: I actually think it's the sort of special sauce in the LGA, you know, recipe here, because that's what we can do that, quite honestly, a lot of national politics seems really set up to not do. You look at the House of Commons, it's designed to be confrontation, it's designed for people to face off against each other, whereas in local councils and strategic authorities, more and more, we're seeing people work together, find the issues that we actually agree on, try and come up with solutions, compromise where necessary. And the LGA is the embodiment of that. And I think if we can deliver something to government in terms of a message, it's this idea of putting aside party and putting in its place our communities and the country, that is something that I think is a real strength. So my plan is to keep that in place, to keep that cross-party cooperation front and centre of all that we're doing. It's actually what the public want us to do a lot more of in politics, so I think let's not shy away from it, let's promote the fact that that's what we can deliver. And it takes hard work and it's not always easy, and it doesn't mean we all agree, but it does mean that we can, where it's crucial and where it's important, put aside some of the sharper edges of politics and put people first.

Louise Gittins: Great, that's a great answer. Jenny, you mentioned about, through the LGA perception survey, about three-quarters of the councils are satisfied with what we're doing, so what else do you think we could be doing with the LGA? I should stop using the word we, but I remember, I'm part, yeah. So what are you going to be doing to close that gap, so 100% of councils would say they're satisfied with everything we do?

Jenny Rowlands: Yeah, and of course the answers came from a range of councils, councillors, leaders, leaders of the opposition, and officers, so I think, first of all, to make sure that we are hearing from everyone in our membership organisation, that we can go back, can't we, and have that second conversation. There was definitely a call for us to do more advocacy and to talk on behalf with one voice, and I thought we got some of the great statistics over today about what we've done, and you can't quibble with how many councils we've got as part of the LGA as we move forward. So I think Louise said the other bit, which was the big conversation Louise Casey on, I think if we could join in, and I know that you talked also around the NEETs conversation, the LGA could convene and make sure we've got those real lived experiences and that volume of conversation back to government, then I think there's no stopping us, and then our councillors will have heard their voices in conversations, and yeah, I'm hoping we can get those scores up even more, although they're pretty good, let's go for 100%.

Louise Gittins: Yeah, definitely, and Eamonn, you sort of talked on a similar theme about the support that councillors get through peer support, through development, but you said that you wanted to go a bit further, so have you had a chance to think what that could look like or what else we could be doing?

Councillor Eamonn O'Brien: Yeah, I mean, I think the people that know communities best, that know public services best, are the people living and breathing them on a day-to-day basis. They are the elected members, the officers, and they bring different experiences and passions and interests, and I just think sometimes where the easy option is to go to an external agency who could sometimes produce a fairly run-of-the-mill report that actually the Local Government Association and all of the expertise that we can draw on could have produced something at better value for money, for a lot more impact. So I think one of the things we'd like to see go further and develop as part of the LGA suite of support is that space where we are the first person you call when you've got an issue, or we're the first person you call when you want to explore a new way of working. I think we are more than capable of doing that. So that's a direction of travel where I can see the LGA being a real player in.

Jenny Rowlands: Because also if we, I was so happy when you said that today, because if we are that first place, we're also investing in our data capacity, and what I want us to be able to do as equal partners when we talk to our local authority family is give diagnostics and give real live time updates on what's happening, how markets are changing, how performance is in a kind of confidential and tailored way to the councils we work with. And so this is a great opportunity for us to step into that space. And I think because of the work you've been doing, MHCLG is ready to hear how we could move more into the early conversations, intervention and improvement work.

Louise Gittins: Yeah, I think taking off your new chair hat, but you've come with your living experience, leader of very, and with Greater Manchester, who part of great GM, combined authority, mayoral authority, I'll guess it right one day. So what do you think has been the greatest source of support you've had from the LGA? And now that you're in a position to change it, and you mentioned, I think that point you made about picking up the phone to the LGA and say, can you come and do the report? Was there anything else that you think we could be doing more of?

Councillor Eamonn O'Brien: Yeah, I mean, I very much am informed by my own experiences as a leader and a leader of a council that is needed improving. And we've been really honest about that. And we've always turned to the LGA, whether that's support around our financial sustainability, whether that's about our improvements in adults and children's or in housing. You know, these are all areas that I think many councils grapple with. And I've always thought that the response we got back from the LGA was incredibly helpful, great value for money and gave us the confidence sometimes to just keep doing what we were doing on that improvement journey. So I think, you know, as a member peer as well, I've seen that across all the councils and I've seen the way that the sector embraces challenge, welcomes scrutiny and actually wants other people to sort of learn from one another. And there's many things I've learned from other councils that I've taken back and that have made the services we offer the organization we are better for it. So there's very few parts of the country that work in that way. Central government could learn a lot from it, I think, the way in which we mutually support and challenge each other. So if I could use that experience both as a leader, but also as a member peer and see how we could do even more for not just councils, but new emerging strategic authorities, possibly with mayors, possibly with central government. I think everyone benefits from that approach.

Louise Gittins: Yeah, I think that relationship with the strategic authorities and the new ones on our devolution variety program and anything else, I think it's that relationship with them that is going to be important. And we've talked about it a lot and we've never quite got there. So between the two of you, what do you think is the first thing we should do to actually move forward in terms of getting those deals, if you like, we want to call them a deal, but getting them into the family?

Councillor Eamonn O'Brien: Well, the first thing I'd love us to do and I said it in my speech is offer that membership out and there's so much we can offer as part of that. And I think it should be a really open invitation. We're all learning and growing in this space, even in a combined authority as established as Greater Manchester. There will be lots of things that we want to go and do more of and do differently. So I think it's all about an open conversation showcasing what the LGA can offer. And at the heart of it is a recognition that for combined authorities and strategic authorities to work, they also need local government underneath them, alongside them, working and thriving. So nobody succeeds if local government is left to wither and all we have are strategic authorities and central government. So I think there's a really positive case to offer. And, you know, maybe you'll see me in Cheshire and Warrington having those conversations.

Louise Gittins: Well, I've already texted our chief exec, actually. I have been given that magic sign that says wrap it up. So what's one thing that you're genuine, I'm going to start with you, Jenny, genuinely optimistic about for local government in the year ahead?

Jenny Rowlands: Well, as we said in the opening session, I think any move that talks, you know, I think our theme from neighbourhood to nation. And I think there are opportunities we call it public sector reform, but really it's about connecting deeper to our communities, listening and knowing that the answer is there. I mean, my big hope is people get to understand the power of early prevention work and power sharing.

Louise Gittins: Excellent. Eamonn?

Councillor Eamonn O'Brien: Well, I am an optimist still, despite everything, I'm an optimist. And I do think there's a lot that if we are proud of it ourselves and we make that case to government, we can use this year to build on what I think was a real reset on the your two years and go even further and actually reestablish local government as central to how we deliver a better country.

Louise Gittins: Hello. So now we're going to talk to Robin Paul from Cambridgeshire and Peterborough combined authority. That's our mayor and chief executive. And I wanted to just ask, really, we've heard quite a lot today about ambition and growth. So what do you think? How do you think you'll create an ambitious growth programme for your area? And what does that look like? What's so different for Cambridgeshire and Peterborough?

Paul Bristow: Well, I always tell the story about our growth plan. One of the first things I ever did as mayor is I went to the UK Real Estate Conference. It was like literally 10 days after I was elected. And I turned up at this conference and there were the big beasts, you know, Andy Burnham, mayor of Manchester. There was Steve Rotherham, mayor of Liverpool, Ben Houchen from the mayor of Tees Valley. These people have been mayors for a long time. And then there was little old Paul Bristow, who wasn't even a household name in his own household. And I'm sat there and I went to our pavilion and it wasn't as big as some of the other pavilions, was it?

Rob Bridge: No.

Paul Bristow: I can tell you this, it was packed out for people wanting to come from all around the country, all around the world, in fact, to listen to what we were doing in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough. And look, I'd like to say it was because of, you know, the handsome, intelligent new mayor. I think a lot of it was because Cambridgeshire and Peterborough had been growing at that time by 2.8% annually. And that's the same period of time that Andy Burnham boasted a 3% growth. So we were growing at almost exactly the same rate as the Greater Manchester area. And so many people were interested in that whole Cambridgeshire and Peterborough story. Now, if we get behind a growth plan, if we can get the growth company, which is going to be a new development corporation, so obviously some money is going to grow there and the university behind all our efforts, our investable positions to grow a whole economy. Why can't we have the fastest growing economy of anywhere in the UK? So that's why we've got this really ambitious growth plan. It's not just talking about doubling GVA. It's a mayoral ambition to treble GVA to 2050. We know that in many ways that that looks unrealistic, but that's unconstrained growth. So if we get everything that we want in terms of infrastructure, in terms of government support, that is what's possible. That's the prize. And lobbying 101 is always matching what your ambition to that of the governments, you know, showing the government that they can achieve their objectives by doing what you want them to do. And that's what we're doing in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough.

Jenny Rowlands: So no pressure. What does it mean in terms of delivery as the chief executive? What do you think it means for your team?

Rob Bridge: So I mean, Paul's just made reference to the time that we moved to tripling GVA, which was said in front of leaders. And there was a silence from our leaders who had asked us to be more ambitious. But there was then a reality of what that would mean. What we've done is recognising we've got quite a ranging area in Cambridgeshire and Peterborough in terms of three cities, one being the fastest growth, Cambridge, obviously renowned internationally, but also some real challenges from deprivation and rurality of parts of our area. We focus the growth plan around four opportunity zones and have pulled all together all of the propositions that unlock the growth to the key strengths and sectors within the industrial strategy. So we've got one that focuses on Peterborough, one that focuses on Cambridge, one that focuses on the Fens and then one that focuses on Huntingdonshire and more importantly on the defence industry, which is really growing in that area, which is really important nationally now with what investments coming from government. So we've tried to make sure that we have something that can talk to the whole region. But then importantly, we're now developing those investable propositions and making sure that they can be really strong and robust. So investors, whether that's public or private sector, can work with us to then get into delivery. And that's what we're now focused on with our partners.

Jenny Rowlands: So it sounds like you've got that real identity, you've got the place, you've got the kind of legitimacy and the voice that we're talking about earlier and you're just ready for the opportunity now, kind of ready to go. And I wondered you were talking about the deprivation in parts of your area and how do you balance getting the investment in, getting investment partners, getting the growth and making sure that that's inclusive growth and opportunities for everyone?

Paul Bristow: Well, I think there's two principles that everyone can kind of unite on and that is that Cambridge has been growing at a significant rate and that Cambridge phenomenon over the last 20, 25 years has been extraordinary, really. And Cambridge is now internationally significant. So look, we want to lean into that. We want to enhance Cambridge, make sure that those challenges around water, around congestion, around energy, we need to address some of those challenges. But at the same time, we need to spread that prosperity of Cambridge and the greater Cambridge area to the rest of our region. That's Peterborough, the Fens, as part of Huntingdonshire. But also it also means part of Cambridge as well, because Cambridge is a very unequal city. You've got some very wealthy parts of Cambridge, but also some very poor parts. And if growth is not working for my friend who's living in a one bedroom flat in King's Hedges with three children, then quite frankly, I'm not interested. I want growth to actually work for everybody across our region, unleash the great potential of our biggest city, which is Peterborough, where I'm from and the Fens, where I'm from. We want to unleash the potential of that area, but at the same time, enhance what is special about Cambridge.

Rob Bridge: It's worth adding. One of the real successes in the time, you know, the combined authority has been there, is building a new university in partnership with Peterborough City Council and with government through the levelling up fund, as it used to be known. And that's a new university in partnership with Anglia Ruskin that's in Peterborough. And over 50% of the people that attend that university are from PE postcodes that would have never gone to university. And that's working with the businesses in that area to try and get the right pathways to the types of jobs that are in the area as well. So from a social mobility and trying to address some of those challenges, it's been really, really impactful. And these people, these young people who are now going to university, they're just not nameless people. They're my friends' children. OK, the people I grew up with. I went to a local school in Whittlesey, which is in the Fens. And going to university, going to that school, that wasn't for everybody. It wasn't considered a natural thing to do. And so a lot of my friends who didn't go to university, their children now are because of that university.

Jenny Rowlands: Honestly, it's fantastic to hear that. I think it really just chimes with what we're talking about at conference, about asking for more, knowing your place. And I really, it was joyous to hear about how you're using every opportunity for everyone that lives in Cambridge and Peterborough. So I guess my last point would be, what would you say to conference? What do you want to get out of this week? What would you like to go away with?

Paul Bristow: Well, I guess my first thing is to say, even though I'm the mayor and Rob's the chief executive of a combined authority, this for me is, I used to be a member of parliament. I'm going back into local government, OK? And we're all part of the same family. And while I think mayors are very much part of the local government infrastructure that we've got now, they're not separate to anybody else. We've got our own thing, but we're very much part of the local government family, as far as I'm concerned. And that's one of the reasons we're here.

Rob Bridge: Yeah, I mean, I think I'm a real supporter, always have been, of the Local Government Association. And I'm really keen and said to Paul and our organisation that as a combined authority, we need to be here and we need to be part of that family. Because actually, we can't operate and deliver if we don't have councils that are robust, financially sustainable and able to deliver. Without that, we aren't anything. So it's important as a whole system that we can make the difference.

Jenny Rowlands: Thank you. That is a great point to end on. Thank you so much.

Eve Roodhouse: Hello, my name is Eve Roodhouse. I'm the Director of Strategy and Policy at the Local Government Association, and thank you for joining us for LGA Voices, powered by Milbank. It's day two here at LGA Conference, and this is episode two of our podcast, and I am delighted that I have two guests joining me today to talk about adult social care and what we need adult social care to look like in the future. So, with no further ado, let's hear from them. James, would you like to introduce yourself?

James Bullion: Hello Eve, I'm James Bullion. I've been working at the LGA on social care reform, and in particular trying to work out what councils think about how social care should change.

Eve Roodhouse: And yourself, Steve?

Steve Duckett: I'm Steve Duckett. I'm a former unpaid carer.

Eve Roodhouse: Thank you very much for joining me, both of you. So, James, could you kick us off? We've just launched this report, Care Where We Live, all about the future of adult social care. Can you give us a sense of the key takeaways from that report?

James Bullion: Yeah, well, it was a really rich conversation with councils, councillors and officers involved in social care. What the publication does is it gives us 10 points of consensus about what councils think about social care and what needs to change. Some of the key findings are, for example, that we don't have a very strong national narrative about social care. Most people don't understand what it is, and therefore public support for it and investing in it is weak because most people don't see social care until they need it. And when they do need it, then they realise that actually it's not as comprehensive as perhaps they thought it might be. So, the report tries to make the case in any reform going forward, we explain what social care is and make the case for increased investment. And then I suppose the second key finding is the role of local government is absolutely crucial in the way social care is delivered because it's based in a much broader set of services that local government is responsible for, such as community cohesion, economic growth and housing.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah, so local authorities, local councils have a really big role to play, not just in the delivery of social care itself, but all the services that are complementary to it. And so, James, why did we do this report now? Why particularly at this moment is this report important?

James Bullion: Well, as we all know, the Casey Commission has been looking at on behalf of government what a national care service should be and what changes should take place. And I think it was really important that we in local government, as part of engaging with the Casey Commission, we had a really strong view about what local government thinks, so that we're not, as it were, done to. We've got a really strong voice in what we believe should change around the role of local government. And for example, if we are, as councils are, if we are to spend more money on social care at the moment, that's largely fuelled by the council tax and by the social care levy. And if government is thinking how funding should change, it's important that local government states what it thinks about that and what the impact of changing the way we fund it would mean.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah, thanks, James. And so, Steve, looking back on your experience, what made the biggest difference to you as you took care?

Steve Duckett: I suppose what I would really look for is joined-up services. My wife had Huntington's disease, which is a very complex disorder, and I was balancing loads of different services on a regular basis. And because her condition was deteriorating as well, I kind of described it as spinning plates while standing on lily pads. And what I needed really was not to have to navigate a really complex number of people that I had to do. So what I'm looking for, I don't really care in a way who does it. I just want, at the co-face, for it to be seamless. Our job is really challenging as an unpaid carer. You know, we put our lives on hold. You know, we work long hours.

Steve Duckett: And what we try to do is put a little bit of sunshine into a day that's generally raining. What we're looking for, really, is a series of organisations to bring us that umbrella, to shield us from that and to help us through that. So I don't want to have to go through umpteen different assessment processes, tell my story loads of times, because I'm tired. You know, if I'd been up during the night doing what I was doing for 10 years, the last 10 years of her life, I may not, as I've said to other people, I've only got one nerve left. Please don't get on it. And so what I'm looking for is something that's going to make that journey easier. When you think of the contribution unpaid carers make to the health and social care economy, it is enormous. Without us, the system would collapse. So all we're asking, it's not a big ask, all we're asking is please just make that journey easier for us.

Eve Roodhouse: So one of the kind of really valuable things and important things about the LGA is that we're a cross-party, critically led organisation. So we have all of the main political parties working together to advocate for the change that we need in social care. And I think that's really special and really important as we move into this next stage, isn't it? So do you feel optimistic, James, with what you're hearing through the Casey review and the work that we're doing in the LGA, that there's a path emerging for us to be able to this time get it right in terms of the reform we need?

James Bullion: Yeah, I think so. I mean, that cross-party issue is really crucial if we're going to make a case for change, actually. And I've been really heartened by the work in the LGA about the really strong feeling right across the political spectrum that now is the time that we need to address social care reform. And in particular, there's lots of consensus about the role that councils need to play as community organisations and a real willingness by politicians to actually continue to have accountability and responsibility for social care. I'm optimistic, actually, that this time we may get movement. I recognise that we need this public debate that Baroness Casey has referred to. And I think councils have got a really crucial role to play in helping shape the questions and make sure that conversation goes out.

Steve Duckett: I've been involved for over 25 years now in caring and I've seen a real significant change in the last five, six, seven, eight years. It's very different from when I started. And so I've got a little bit of optimism, slightly jaundiced because there's been lots of reforms applied before, none of which have really hit the targets. And to follow up from changes, this is beyond politics. This is apolitical. This isn't an option. This is imperative now that we need to start. We're all living longer. We're all getting older. We're all not necessarily living well longer. Therefore, the need for care is going to increase. And we've just got to accept that and find the resources for that to do it.

James Bullion: And I think, again, from a strategic point of view, I think that you need to be thinking about where that funding comes from. Because my worry is if you're robbing the council tax to go into social care, which is generally ham, then some of the other services, which are actually important to us, are going to suffer anyway. It's not a good balance. You're robbing people and there's some good for the people out there trying to do the job.

Eve Roodhouse: Fantastic. So it feels, I guess I feel from our conversation that this is a moment, isn't it? There's a particular moment in time where there seems to be just the right amount of momentum from both carers, from those who are in receipt of social care, from councils, from the government, from the voluntary sector. Everyone seems to feel ready now to really address the challenge ahead of us and make the change. So there is real reason to be optimistic, but there's a lot of hard work for us to do and get our sleeves rolled up. So it'll be interesting to see how things develop over the next few months. So thank you both for joining me.

Eve Roodhouse: Hello, I'm Eve and I'm here with Caroline Star from the School of International Futures. Hi Caroline. We've just recently done a great piece of work with you on the State of Things to Come and it's kind of looking to 2040 and thinking about possible futures. Would you like to sort of tell us a little bit about why look that far ahead and what's the kind of reasoning for us thinking 2040 as opposed to say five years time or thinking much further into the future?

Caroline Star: Well it can be hard even getting to the end of the week these days with so much going on. So I think all these kind of challenges going on for local government right now, that's exactly why it is so important to think about the future. It can be really...

Caroline Star: Well it can be hard even getting to the end of the week these days with so much going on. So I think all these kind of challenges going on for local government right now, that's exactly why it is so important to think about the future. It can be really hard to come up with the solutions to those challenges when you're kind of stuck in the mindset of today. That's where futures thinking comes into it. It's all about looking beyond what we think we know and actually kind of thinking differently about what we do today. In terms of like why 2040, it's a sort of a distance that's far enough ahead that gives us some scope to imagine. It's not so far away that that future is feeling completely unrealistic. So that's the reason for that particular time frame.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah and we had a lot of feedback from our members actually at the LGA and they wanted us to carve out this space to think longer term for exactly the reason you say, which is often I think there's the kind of never-ending day-to-day of making sure your organisation is running well, financially stable, addressing all of those demands and sometimes your thinking is almost maybe if you're lucky like a few years ahead but being able to do that real step back is quite rare. So it's been really great to work with you on this for that reason. I think I went past one of the rooms when you're doing all the workshop sessions and I think there might have been some Lego and some post-it notes so there's definitely some exciting things going on and so it sounds very engaging. The way you describe it as well it also sounds like something that councils can easily pick up and do for themselves as well and that they can sort of reflect on how we've done it with you through the thing and take those things and do it. So maybe we'll touch on that a bit more, but in terms of drawing out for us some of those themes maybe you could tell us some of the stories, like what were the sort of stories that you kind of came out at the end about those futures that were imagined?

Caroline Star: So we ended up with five stories, characters we had Ali, we had Sally, we had Joe, these are a few of our characters from 2040. I think their ages were spanning from about 17 years old to 63 years old in the end from a range of different towns. Some of them worked for councils, some of them were residents, some of them worked in voluntary sector organisations. There were some really interesting things we saw through the eyes of those characters. It was things like the agency they felt, how seamless it was for them to work across different sectors, across different organisations. All of the systems that they had underpinning their work so it was really easy for them to focus on people and in a lot of the stories there was a trusted person, there was a conversation at the centre of it. The stories also they're not utopias, they don't resolve everything about 2040. They purposefully include some tensions, some things which are still to explore on what 2040 is going to look like and what it's going to take to get there.

Eve Roodhouse: You shared some of those stories at conference. What was the response to those stories from those that were there at the session you ran?

Caroline Star: We've had some brilliant conversations about the stories and I think what it shows is it's really important to feel the future as well as to understand it logically. So people listen to the story and they have a reaction to it. Sometimes it's emotional, oh I wish this could be the case. Sometimes a bit sceptical, there's no way that's going to happen by 2040. Sometimes it's oh I can see this is starting to happen, what can I build on to get there. So what we've been hearing is people are starting to have that connection with the characters and with their experiences. It's raising more questions for them and then we're getting into a conversation. Could this happen in 2040? What would need to be different? What questions does it raise for you? How do you think people in your organisation could use this story? So that moves us into a really interesting question which is these are not intended necessarily to be specific predictions but they are provocations and ways to think about what you might do to get to different futures.

Eve Roodhouse: So what sort of advice would you give to council leaders, both political and officers, to think about what they might do with this report in terms of what it might bring to mind for them and what they might do?

Caroline Star: This report is only the start. The hard thing isn't understanding and engaging with these themes. The difficult thing is actually figuring out what we need to do differently to start taking steps towards those positive futures. For each of the five themes, it could play out very differently. It could play out very positively, it could also play out very negatively so it's really important to start thinking about what are the steps that will get to that more positive future. And these resources, they're not supposed to stay in a report. There are a range of things that can help start conversations within organisations. We've got descriptions of each theme, how they might play out positively and negatively. We've got the hopeful stories from the future told by the characters. We've also got lots of different questions, some for political leaders, some for executive leaders and some just to go a little bit deeper into each theme where you can already see that your council is making some progress. So I think the invitation is start engaging with the future, use some of these questions and really think about the action which is going to be needed in the next few years to get to those more positive outcomes.

Eve Roodhouse: And the good news for people listening as well is as you say, this is just the start. We've established an LG2040 network and people can get involved in that and get involved in the next stages of work. So I'm really delighted that we've done this piece of work with you because I think often it's really hard to imagine a hopeful future when there is so much in front of you every day, particularly when you're a senior leader in a council, either an officer or politician. So it really does give a sense of ways that we can make sure that our communities really will be thriving in 2040 despite all the things that are being thrown at us from many directions. So it's kind of a bit of a round up Caroline. What's the thing that you're most hopeful about having done this piece of work and met lots of colleagues from across local government?

Caroline Star: What is making me feel hopeful about 2040 is all the conversations that we have had throughout this project in developing the themes and then as we've been sharing them with local authorities afterwards. It is what makes me feel hopeful is I think that determination coming through. 2040 can be better for our residents. All the ideas and the seeds of change are starting to come out of those conversations and it definitely makes me feel all of these specific ideas I've been hearing. It definitely makes me feel that 2040 can be more positive.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah, wonderful and I feel the same. I think, particularly having spent some time at conference, being with the local government family always brings you a bit of hope because you can see how much both elected politicians from all parties and officers really care about their communities and after all that's what brings us all together. So thank you very much for the work and look forward to continuing our conversation and our work together.

Caroline Star: Well thank you Eve and I hope everybody out there in different organisations across local government really enjoys their conversations about the themes and what it's going to take for a more hopeful 2040.

Eve Roodhouse: So now I'm joined by Katie Heard from the Good Things Foundation. Katie, it's good to see you. How are you?

Katie Heard: I'm really good, thank you. Are you?

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah, I'm not too bad at all. I've been very much enjoying catching up with people around the range of work that we do at the LGA with our partners. So maybe you could start by just telling us just a little bit about Good Things Foundation before we get into that discussion.

Katie Heard: So Good Things Foundation are a digital inclusion charity. Our mission is to make sure everyone can participate in today's digital society and with the rapid change that we're seeing, it's ever more important. We've been around for about 15 years, started really focused on skills, but more recently we have broadened our offer to make sure we are addressing all parts of digital exclusion. So helping people build the skills and the confidence they need through a network of community hubs, but also...

Katie Heard: Recognising that being online is expensive and so people need help to get devices or get free mobile data to be online. So we run the National Device Bank and the National Data Bank, which can be accessed through those community hubs to help people get online.

Eve Roodhouse: Excellent, thank you very much. So you described there some of the work that you do. Now I know that you and I both know this stuff works. Often part of making the case is giving some output, some kind of quantification of why to invest. You know sometimes we need to make that case, particularly in tight financial circumstances if you're justifying investment in one area over another. So how do we know that this stuff is actually making a difference and how do we sort of know what good looks like, to offer that back to make the case?

Katie Heard: So we can look at evidencing the difference that this work is making in lots of different ways. We can look at it from a local council's perspective. What are the indicators that tell you that people aren't needing support with digital services? Are more people signing up for direct debit? Are fewer people using your call centre and actually self-serving online? Those kind of measures are great indicators for success and actually can be quite easily translated into a financial impact. So that is really powerful in terms of making the business case. For individuals, often providing a single solution ticks a box but actually doesn't solve a longer-term issue. So I can give somebody a SIM card that gives them mobile data but that SIM card lasts for six months. So it's a sticking plaster. It doesn't solve the problem. So we've developed three questions that we've called the indicators of digital inclusion which assess people's situation in terms of how digitally excluded they are. So they check to see whether they're online or not. It checks to see what their barriers are and checks to see what vulnerabilities they've got. And using those three questions, we can measure people's journeys towards being digitally included. So you've got a group who are completely digitally excluded. They haven't got a device. They don't know how to do it. They haven't got support to do it. They're just not online. You've got a group of people which is about 30% of the population who are really securely online, happy with what they need to do. That's fine. Now you've got a big group in the middle who are not sure. They've got lots of things going on. So if we can fix individual bits for those people in the middle, we can measure that progress towards full digital inclusion. So it's a really great tool to do baseline and impact assessment with the people that you're supporting. We're seeing some councils in Sussex, for example, who are using these questions as triage questions. So when people turn up for their services, they ask these three questions and they can understand what the barriers are for people being online and potentially fix those in situ. Therefore, moving people closer to being online, ticking the boxes in terms of the measures that the council services might be interested in, like increased direct debit use, reduced use of the call centre, and hopefully meaning that everybody is achieving a better outcome. And again, we see this in NHS services. The local system works the same for a member of the public. You know, they might present within the NHS, which is being digitally excluded. They might present in local council services. If those systems can work together to say, I am going to help you whichever place you are, then hopefully you'll see a system wide change for local population.

Eve Roodhouse: And is there anywhere that does that now, that does that pretty well now between the NHS and the local council?

Katie Heard: So we've been working with quite a lot of areas where the NHS and local authority worked well together. So Leeds is a really great example. 100% Digital Leeds have invested in the local council in digital inclusion, but they recognise that this system wide change is important. So they have provided funding for local community organisations, but also connected in with the NHS system. So they have primary care digital health hubs where people are getting the digital support they need and the council is the co-ordinator of all that provision within the local place.

Eve Roodhouse: Katie, that's been a fantastic conversation. Before we finish, where should listeners look to find the information that you've found?

Katie Heard: So you can go to our website, which is goodthingsfoundation.org. And on there, we have got examples of all of the tools that I've mentioned today. So that's the indicators of digital inclusion, the digital inclusion partnership pathway to assess your progress. And also it gives you access to all of our services. So the National Data Bank, National Device Bank, and it can signpost you to Learn My Way, which is our digital skills platform. You can also find where your local community hub might be to help address some of these issues and maybe just start a local conversation to see how you can fix it.

Eve Roodhouse: Thank you. Thank you very much. And now I'm delighted that I've got Joanne Roney, the managing director of Birmingham City Council with me. And Joanne, I thought it would be a good moment for us to sort of reflect on the possibilities around devolution, given all the discussion around Manchesterism, that's the word of the moment, and your extensive experience working across a number of areas that have had devolution. So maybe you could start by telling us a little bit about your experience.

Joanne Roney: So I've worked with West Yorkshire Combined Authority when that was first created. I was the chief executive in Wakefield. Clearly I worked with Greater Manchester for eight years when I was the chief executive of Manchester. And while I was in Greater Manchester, I led on skills on the reforming of the skills system. So there's something in there we can explore. And now of course I'm in West Midlands, which also has a combined authority. So three different relationships in three different places. But good to see the various strengths in all of them, really.

Eve Roodhouse: So if you were reflecting on those three sets of experiences, what do you think are the most important things for people to be thinking about if they're thinking about devolution for the first time in their place, or even if they're a new leader in a council in a place that already has devolution?

Joanne Roney: So I think drawing on the experience of all of them, which were all in different stages, there's some things that stand out for me. And the really strong collaboration comes from leaders and chief executives committing time to genuinely work together in a way of creating what's the vision? What are they trying? What are they coming together for? What do they want to see achieved for their places? And committing to having those conversations, agreeing what they agree on, using data, using intelligence, but having honest conversations about what's not working here, what we want to change. And you just can't underestimate how much getting that right at the start sets the tenor for everything that's going to be achieved afterwards.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah. And what would you say the most sort of important foundational things to think about as you're getting your combined authority, now strategic authority, set up?

Joanne Roney: So I think where Greater Manchester stands out in this space is Greater Manchester had an independent economic review. So they were very clear about the data and the rationale for why they needed to work differently for the purpose of economic growth. But equally, they were clear that they needed to commit to reforming the way public services were being delivered. Because they saw it as two sides of the same coin. We're going to create jobs, we're going to create homes, we're going to create better integrated transport systems. But we want that growth to make a difference to the people who live here. So what are we going to do around skills, health devolution? Right from the very start, not an afterthought. So I think that's where Greater Manchester stand out. Authorities that have been created have taken that and quite right, that's how we should do it. We need to do both. It's not all about physical investment and physical infrastructure. It's got to have a narrative about, so how do we want to wire ourselves differently locally, our universities, our police, our health services, start doing that and then we turn our attention to how we want to see Whitehall prepared, which is a really exciting thing.

Eve Roodhouse: Indeed, and kind of switching the dial a little bit in this towards national value. There's so much history of control from central government through the different departments. And do you think there'll be some resistance in some of these functions being devolved within the departments? And what do you think we need to do in terms of making sure that as this door opens, it doesn't sort of close rapidly again?

Joanne Roney: So just to reassure people, I'm not completely...

Joanne Roney: So just to reassure people, I'm not completely giddy to the point that I don't think that there's going to be frustrations and difficulties here. And I think there also has to be a degree of respect for the role of government. There has to be respect for that. It isn't just, you know, oh, we're taking all the power and, you know, somehow it's all going to be great for local government and we're not going to take notice of government. You know, I think the respect for civil servants who have to deal with multi-complicated, many competing challenges on a national scale, not a local scale, dwarf what we struggle with in local government. So, of course, there will be legitimate resistance or resistance, I'm not sure resistance, maybe just the kind of wanting to see that the checks and balances are in place because they have a different level of accountability than we do locally. And I think that's okay, isn't it? That we should be respectful about that. So we should go with the devolution that works in our places. Local government should get excited about what it's asking for, bearing in mind it's accountable for it, it's got to deliver it. But equally, I think we should respect where there is legitimate pushback that says actually in this issue, there is a national argument for why that should be devolved. And I think that has to be a new era of professional respect between local government officers and civil service officers. I mean, we've talked a lot about the career pathways and the crossing over, and the extent to which we understand each other's worlds. And I think this is the real time for that joint leadership.

Eve Roodhouse: Brilliant. Thanks, Joanne. And so, just in terms of wrapping up, I just want to say that there are resources available on the LGA website for those of you that are going through devolution now. And you can find some advice and support there. Do take a look. Thank you very much.

Eve Roodhouse: And now I have Jason Kitcat from the Department for Business and Trade with me. Jason, it's lovely to have you here. Would you like to just first of all tell us a little bit about your role?

Jason Kitcat: I'm the Director of Digital Data and Technology at the Department for Business and Trade. So I lead a team of about 550 people, building products and services that support businesses to grow, be better, and also deal with all the rules for bringing goods in and out of the country.

Eve Roodhouse: Wow, that sounds like quite an interesting role to have at this time in government. How long have you been doing that?

Jason Kitcat: I've been doing it for six years. Prior to that, I was a council leader and also an executive director in a county council. So I have been on different sides of the fence.

Eve Roodhouse: Wow, that's really interesting. So look forward to our discussion then. So we wanted to focus in our discussion today a bit about artificial intelligence and reflections on how artificial intelligence might be impacting councils and impacting how we engage with our residents. What do you see as the big transformations that are potentially there for local government as a result of artificial intelligence?

Jason Kitcat: So I can't tell the future, I can't say for sure, but the things that we're observing now, which I think are true across public services, one is that every citizen has access to these tools in the same way we do. It's quite a sort of democratic technology. Anyone can access Gemini or ChatGPT or Claude for free or for a low cost. And so whatever we're using to work on our own ways of working and support our teams, a member of the public can use to support their planning application or objection to a planning application, their benefit application or tax return and so on. And so it is creating a source of demand and challenge that maybe is increasing and more complex. We're also seeing some very significant sort of tectonic shifts in which companies, the most important companies, because of AI, it's shifting the market, it's shifting how we buy technology and also increasing the risk for councils. They might get stuck with the wrong supplier because they're all trying to lock us in. So how do councils think about maintaining a degree of independence in a world where every vendor wants them to pick only them and use them for the foreseeable future? So quite a few different trends at play and very hard to tell where they all end up.

Eve Roodhouse: So I've certainly heard from a lot of councils that they're already getting large volumes of complaints and inquiries coming through that are generated using AI and particularly in legal services that's presenting some interesting challenges about how to deal with that volume and how to respond. Are you getting that type of feedback back from councils?

Jason Kitcat: Certainly. Broadly across all public services, thinking about courts and tribunals services, local government, anywhere where there may have felt like there was an imbalance. Some people could afford an advisor, a lawyer, a planning consultant. Now they're going to a chat bot to get that assistance. So that is happening. And of course, on the tools to manage the demand, there is a risk that it becomes a bit of an arms race. I think we're seeing it in the recruitment world where everyone's using AI to polish their CV and their covering statement. But then on the other side, the recruitment agencies and the big employers are using AI to try and sift and filter that. And we're all sort of dissatisfied with the outcome. So I think we've got further to go on thinking this through and how we work it out.

Eve Roodhouse: So on that note, one of the things our councils should be doing is thinking about making sure they've got their data in good order to be able to capitalise on AI.

Jason Kitcat: Absolutely. Without data in a good quality and in a place where you can access it with the AI of your choice, you can't really do anything much with it. The AI has got nothing to draw on. So thinking about that, what tools or infrastructure you're going to use and are they going to lock you in? Is your supplier going to prevent access to the tools of your choice or allow you? That's a really important conversation. It's about that long-term thinking. It's a key asset which you should have control over as an authority rather than a supplier.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah. So when you talk about lock-in, that can be as much about how you go about your procurement of some of your partners. So it's not just people that are working in the technology department in a council that need to be thinking about this. We need our procurement specialists also to be getting their heads around some of the things they need to be thinking about, right?

Jason Kitcat: Absolutely. And the leadership of councils because this is such a strategic issue now. They need to be asking the questions, what is our strategy for data? How are we managing our different vendors? If this was the private sector, say a bank, they would have board-level interest in what happens to the data and ownership of it. That's the kind of thing we need to be led from the top and that will trickle through. Yes, procurement and commercial colleagues, but also legal colleagues, technology colleagues, the whole gamut.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah, thank you, Jason. So the other thing that sometimes councillors feel concerned about is the sort of environmental implications of AI because it does require a large amount of compute power and the size of the data centres that are being built both here in the UK and elsewhere is really significant and they have a pull on water and other resources. How do you think we sort of navigate that in terms of as we increase our use of AI?

Jason Kitcat: It's a tricky question. Measuring it is actually really hard for a whole number of reasons. One is the training happens in one place and then the use or inference, as it's called, happens in a different place. And so while the training might be very intensive, that's often a one-off activity, whereas asking it to do things for us is a repeated activity, which is much lower intensity. Across government, we are working on measurements and ways to address this. It does depend on the companies being open and frank with us about their usage. But for example, Amazon recently came out with data showing the water usage was far lower than what had been estimated by analysts. So we're at the but so far, we're not in a place where we can say this is any worse than you storing every photo you've ever taken in the cloud or every record you've ever bought in the cloud. They are all of the same ilk. So I think be conscious about it, ask questions, ask to measure it, hold your vendors to account. But I don't think we're in the slam dunk case where it's like too bad to be used. I think it's about appropriate use. And one of the conversations very live at the moment is you don't always need to use the latest, greatest model, which is the most energy intensive. So using a smaller, older, cheaper model, or one that's locally run on your computer versus one in the cloud can be good enough for your needs. And those are ways to reduce the energy intensity. But as I say, we're really early days on this. There's a lot to figure out.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah. And just for anyone that's probably less well versed in AI, when you're talking about training, you're talking about training the AI algorithm. Is that right?

Jason Kitcat: Yeah. So training the models, which takes huge amounts of computing power. And they essentially are pointed at the entirety of the internet and asked to train themselves and learn in a way to become the model that then becomes available for use. That is what's very energy intensive and which is why they're building data centres like crazy. But data centres are always also being built because we keep everything on our phones now and they're backed up in the cloud. And because we do our shopping online. So we should be mindful there's a bigger picture here. But certainly AI is driving quite a lot of emissions and build. And we should hold our suppliers to account on that. And it's interesting that some suppliers are choosing to be more open on this than others. So maybe we should pick more open suppliers.

Eve Roodhouse: If we put our economic development hat on for a moment as councils, how can we support local businesses to be able to really understand AI and to be able to because there's a role there for councils as well, isn't there?

Jason Kitcat: Absolutely. So I think there's sort of hard levers of planning permission for things in this space. So data centres, but also associated infrastructure. And then there's the sort of softer thing about skills uplift. Only 14% of employees in the UK have had any AI training, according to a recent Financial Times survey. So that means there's a huge opportunity for just knowledge and awareness out there. And those businesses, whether they're SMEs or bigger businesses, will start to think, well, this is how it works in my context. The council doesn't need to solve all of that for them. But maybe that little nudge to go, come along to that Chamber of Commerce seminar, or that free webinar being provided by a big IT supplier based locally, or all of those kinds of things all help to nudge. Because I think the challenge we see in DBT is businesses are so busy doing business, they don't always step up to look around and go, oh, maybe I need to spend some time on training. So I think councils being local and connected to their business community have a great opportunity to provide leadership there. And also by councils showing by doing, right? We did an experiment, it's worked well, come and copy it.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah, absolutely. And I guess in areas where there's a mayor and a strategic authority, too, there's that opportunity to work across the region on some of these things as well, isn't there? So it feels like a really exciting moment. And I'm really pleased to have spoken to you, because often I think it can be very sort of pessimistic, and the stories about AI can often be quite doom laden. And I feel after our conversation, it feels much more sort of optimistic and hopeful about the ways in which we can sort of think about AI and the way that we could capitalise on it in our councils, in our strategic authorities, you know, and working together with government. So thank you so much for joining me.

Eve Roodhouse: And if anyone does want any support in their organisation to think about some of these issues, then please do look at our website around to our improvement offer around digital and cyber, and do reach out to your regional leads at the LGA.

Eve Roodhouse: And now I have Stephen Taylor with me from Total Place Associates. Stephen, it's really lovely to have you here. You've been doing some work with us at the LGA recently to bring forward our LGA Total Place Handbook. But this isn't something new, this is something that's been around as an idea for quite a long time. And having launched the handbook yesterday, there was some interesting reflection about this being one of the best ideas local government ever had that we've buried and we're now bringing back. So I'm really delighted to spend a little bit of time with you and to explore more around it. So perhaps you could start by hearing a little bit about yourself and perhaps a little about how you were involved in Total Place first time around.

Stephen Taylor: Well, I'm ancient, but I spent a lot of time in MHCLG and then in human resource consulting. And then I was chief executive of the Leadership Centre for local government for four years. And that's where Total Place first came into practice. In fact, it began in Cumbria in 2008 when we put people in buses and they went out all over Cumbria talking to people in factories and shops and farms and saying what's going on? What would make your life better here? And we brought them all back again and listened to them. And it was a really extraordinary, extraordinary experience.

Eve Roodhouse: So could you tell us a little bit about the handbook and what it includes and how you've worked with us to develop it?

Stephen Taylor: Well, we talked one way or another to, I think about 130 people about all this. Not just in local government, in the civil service, in the health service, in the police, in the voluntary sector, in community groups. So I learnt a huge amount just from those conversations, which are fascinating. But the purpose of the handbook is not to be a polemic or a treatise or a set of policies or a piece of academic work. It's a bit like if you buy a lawnmower, you get a manual with it saying pull this to get it started. Well, this is what it's about. It's, you know, pull this to get it started. And so the core of it is a sort of 10 point plan. Now, some councils will be quite a long way down the track already, which is fine, start at step five rather than step one. Others will say, oh, this is all new to us, we'll start at the beginning. So it's got some really interesting examples of what's happened in different parts of the country. Some fascinating stuff in Brent, in Cardiff, where I live now, in Jaywick Sands, all over the place. We could take other examples, there's lots of them. So I'm excited. People are really beginning to say, yeah, we can do this.

Eve Roodhouse: So you were saying that devolution presents a great opportunity to sort of bake in total place approaches. So in that context, how do we adapt the system and take the opportunities that we have around devolution to make sure that total place actually sticks?

Stephen Taylor: Well, there are five place-based budgets pilots going on now, which are essentially total place projects. And I think they're all doing the sensible thing. I've spoken to them before. They've picked a cohort they might be able to help. I'll give you an example. I've done some work on people falling over. And people falling over is a pretty costly thing. Cost about £15,000 to have a replacement. And probably the same again in care costs afterwards. Plus, it's a very unhappy experience for the faller and their family. So who's spending money on that? Could we spend it better? What do the people on the receiving end actually say about it? And when you begin to put that together, we've given an example in the handbook, you get better results and you save quite a lot of money. And that's one of the four big advantages of this whole total place approach. If you go back 30 years, I was working with Camden about 30 years ago. And not thanks to me, but this happened, the chief executive of a local NHS hospital rang up and said, dear Camden, I wonder whether you grit the streets a little bit more often this winter, because if you do, fewer people would fall over.

Stephen Taylor: And the Camden people said, well, we're spending quite a lot of money on that already, to be honest, and we've hit the limits of our budget. Never mind, he said, I'll chip in and pay. Because they'd done the sums that said, if we looked at it collectively, we were all going to be better off. So that's the beginning, or a beginning, of this idea of pooling budgets, not around activities, but about the result that you want, that people don't fall over and break their hip.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah. But the debate, I think, often then comes to, well, isn't that just down to who's in leadership positions at a particular time? So do you have to legislate and change the systems? And then in policy spheres, you often get into very complex debates about whether you should change bits of policy here and there and legislation. How do we avoid getting into a big debate about changing legislation, whilst also acknowledging that without some changes, it is very much dependent often on the leadership style?

Stephen Taylor: I'd mainly start by not changing the legislation. I think a legal duty to cooperate is a platitude, really. It's not going to make any difference. But so much does turn on relationships, and they can take a long time to build. And the high level of churn in public sector posts, particularly, to be honest, in the NHS, makes it difficult. So does the fact that we have different geographical boundaries, that makes it difficult. But I think the most effective way, and we said this in the handbook, is to sit down with your counterparts in the NHS and the police and elsewhere, and say, what do you think we could do together that we can't do separately? And how might we all benefit by doing that? I'd like, Eve, I'd like to see a much more fundamental change that if I'm a senior person in the public sector, I'm praised, rewarded, recognised, paid, or whatever it is, not just on how I did in my organisation, but how did we collectively do locally? And if you work for a big company, let's suppose you're head of HR in a big company, you're not just going to be appraised on how HR did, you're going to be appraised on how the whole company did, because you're part of making the whole company succeed. I don't understand why we don't treat senior public sector people in exactly the same way.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah, wonderful. So Stephen, before we wrap up our conversation, is there anything that we haven't covered that you think is really important to share?

Stephen Taylor: I think people worry a lot about, oh, we haven't got the money to do this, the law doesn't favour us doing this, we've had problems with data, our organisation's structure doesn't help. You can always find reasons not to do stuff. My argument is just get started, have a go, learn from it, see what happens, then go firm.

Eve Roodhouse: Yeah, thank you, Stephen. It's been an absolute pleasure talking with you. Really pleased with the outcome of the work that we've done together on the Total Place handbook, and for anyone that's listening, you can find that now on our website. Please do take a look and think about how you might adopt the Total Place approach in your area.

Eve Roodhouse: Now that's all we've got time for today. I hope you've enjoyed listening to this edition of LGA Voices, powered by Milbank.

Nicola Robason: Hi and welcome to LGA Voices powered by Milbank. My name is Nicola Robason. I'm the Director of Operations at the LGA and this is day three of the LGA Conference 2026. I'm joined today by Shaheen Warren, Associate Director Practice and Innovation at Power to Change. Hi Shaheen.

Shaheen Warren: Hi Nicola, pleasure to be here.

Nicola Robason: At the conference we've talked a lot about place and I'm just wondering what do you see as the main success stories of Pride in Place and how can the programme build on those successes going forward?

Shaheen Warren: I think we're only just getting started so it's early days in the programme. I think we have some really positive signals for what that change might look like over the next ten years and one of them is fundamentally the programme is designed to put control back into communities' hands, so we're really moving away from the sort of atmosphere of feeling like communities are done to, to alongside communities and that's baked into the design of the Pride in Place programme which I think is really exciting. So less about consulting communities on things that may or may not be already decided but really about saying here is a pot of funding that you really have control and voice in saying how it gets spent in your local communities and how you identify what the priorities should be in your place. Some of the positive signals that we're seeing in the work at Power to Change and as people might know, Power to Change has a history of backing community business in place. For example, the appointment of community business leaders as neighbourhood board chairs, really taking that view that people who are locally rooted in place who have been working really hard to understand what a place needs and what communities need and now in the driving seat of a neighbourhood board that gets to decide what this long-term ten-year investment really looks like. I personally find that really exciting. Some of the community businesses that we work with find that really exciting and just to give you an example, we work with an organisation called the Dewsbury Arcade Group. It sits in the locality that is overseen by Kirklees Council. They took over a Grade II Victorian era building and they're now running the first community-owned, community-led shopping centre in the UK. That is a profitable business, those profits are reinvested back into communities and they have incredible power because of their legacy in the place to convene people. Again, we're moving away from consultation to real control, increasing the footfall in this space by thousands and getting people to come forward and say what is their vision for their place and really exercising that kind of civic energy that I think the Pride in Place programme is there to do. So that's one small example of how I think the programme could build on some of those successes moving forward.

Nicola Robason: That's fantastic, Shaheen, that sounds really exciting. I know you've just mentioned there the strategy talks about giving communities genuine control and able to shape their own neighbourhoods and I know you've just given a great example there. Do you have any other examples that you can really tell us what that feels like in practice?

Shaheen Warren: Yeah, absolutely. So I think I've often been asked the question of what are the lessons that we can learn from places that have done this well or from programmes of investment that have sought to do the same thing. I'm going to go back a little bit to the days of the New Deal for Communities and two examples really stand out for me but I'm going to focus in on one of my favourites. An organisation called Back on the Map in Sunderland that was born out of roughly £50 million investment in a neighbourhood in Sunderland called Hendon and with that £50 million investment they built a community-led organisation and that organisation worked with communities to identify what is the priority in this place and unsurprisingly even all those many years ago, housing, the lack of housing stock, the lack of affordable housing, the poorly kept social housing that was in their place was a real priority for that community. What Back on the Map ended up doing is building an organisation that was able to buy up around just over 60 plus homes of housing stock, some of that in private ownership, some of it used as social housing. They bought up the stock, they brought that stock up to quality so they reinvested in the regeneration and renovation of those homes and now they operate two businesses. One that is a private lettings company managing private properties on behalf of landlords who provide housing at affordable rates for communities and then another bit that's part of a social lettings agency, also enabling the social housing stock to increase and be good quality for the people who live there. On the back of that they now manage multiple assets. There's a community library that they're managing with a footfall of over 900 residents visiting the facilities. That was a council-owned property so the council has been able to transfer that ownership over to the community into a business that again generates profit. Profit year-on-year is something like £340,000 just from the housing business alone but that profit is then reinvested back into the business and reinvested back into communities and you can see this sort of ripple effect of those types of organisations. What's really powerful about those stories is that that is what community-led inclusive economic development looks like. How do we use the opportunity of that Pride in Place investment to really kick-start something that starts to look very different in place but delivers positive outcomes for the people who live there?

Nicola Robason: Shaheen, procurement is often seen as quite a technical tool but it can be a really powerful regeneration tool for local areas. Is there anything that you think about the procurement use to strengthen local economies and build community wealth?

Shaheen Warren: Yeah, this is one that is particularly close to my heart because as you say I think it is one of the most powerful levers that local government and regional government have in order to ensure that local economic development is really put in the heart and the hands of communities. Lots of work has been done here on community wealth building and using procurement as a way of kick-starting community wealth building and there are examples in Preston of where that's worked really positively. Some of the barriers are around what is it that's stopping us in the delivery because the legislation is there and very recently we've seen changes to some of the very important wording of the legislation that goes from looking at the most economically advantageous contracts and bids into just advantageous. So how do we look at advantageous in a different way? My message to procurement officers up and down the country would be to see that as not just about looking for the most financially advantageous contract or bid but really moving to how do we use procurement as a kick-start for being able to reinvest that public money back into communities themselves and into places and businesses who are themselves built as community businesses to reinvest that back locally. We have an organisation that we work quite closely with called Nudge and for every pound that's spent with Nudge in Plymouth, 96p is retained in the local economy. Nationally when we scale that up we see that community businesses are retaining about 56p in the local economy compared to the 40p that is retained when you work with private businesses. We need a mixed model so it's not about making choices between things but I think there is a way in which procurement and public spending in a place can really shift some of those local economy dynamics and if you scale that, 96p from Nudge into the whole of council spending, you've really got a platform to create truly inclusive growth in your place.

Nicola Robason: If there was one thing that you would encourage a council leader or a chief executive or a procurement lead to take away from listening to this podcast today, what would it be?

Shaheen Warren: I think where the rubber is really going to hit the road on Pride in Place is challenging all of our levels of comfort. If I was a council leader or a chief executive my advice and encouragement would be to get uncomfortable quickly and if you're not feeling uncomfortable including in the way that we're shaping the programme in your place, the way that you're sharing power with communities, then we're probably doing something wrong. For a leader of a council or a chief exec that means, for example, really putting your trust in that neighbourhood board chair, really believing in their ability to be able to convene people in the right way to make decisions to control how that public investment is spent alongside their neighbourhood board colleagues and picking somebody who is truly locally rooted in the community so having somebody who really represents that place, really understands it deeply and then can really be equipped. I think that is the important bit about public institutions, how do we equip people to then be able to play the roles that they're being asked to play despite the fact that the councils are holding a lot of that accountability but community empowerment and accountability can go hand in hand we just have to work really hard at it. The second part of your question, what's my advice for procurement leads up and down the country, spend the money locally, really understand what are the assets in your place, who are the social businesses, who are the organisations that are working to deliver some of those shared positive outcomes that we seek to deliver from communities. I think if you start at the point of outcomes rather than on the point of contracts or services we might get further along and we might then be able to use that public spending as a lever to create inclusive growth. Pride in Place as a programme, the real opportunity here is to link that back into sustainability for the long term, real power and control in communities and building for sustainability. Something that often is neglected when we talk about the Pride in Place programme is that there is in the design a future prerequisite that by year three you need to be community-led. Yes it starts with the council and the investment is shared in control with communities but by year three we've really got to be thinking about what is the community-led institution that's going to create that long-term legacy and sustainability in place.

Nicola Robason: Thank you so much, I've learned so much and you're so persuasive and insightful in the way that you've talked to me today. Shaheen, thank you so much for your time, I've really enjoyed chatting to you and I'll see you again soon.

Shaheen Warren: Yeah, so enjoyable to be here, thank you too.

Nicola Robason: Hi, I'm Nicola Robason, I'm the Director of Operations at the LGA and I'm really pleased to welcome Belinda Stubbs, Assistant Director Strategic Commissioning and Procurement from Hampshire County Council. Hi Belinda.

Belinda Stubbs: Hi.

Nicola Robason: We've been talking a lot today at conference about procurement and the Procurement Act 2023 and automation and for people who don't live and breathe the Procurement Act, I mean who are these people, can you just tell us some of the biggest practical changes that this brings to local authorities?

Belinda Stubbs: Yeah sure. I mean I think it's brought some good and some bad changes and on the positive side it's brought us loads more flexibility. A new competitive flexible process we've been looking for for ages, we've been dying to get our hands on it and now we have so that's brilliant. On the negative side there is a lot more paperwork so lots of forms and people are drowning in that paperwork a little bit.

Nicola Robason: Belinda, I think you're also the Vice Chair of NAG, can you tell me what that is?

Belinda Stubbs: Yes of course. So that's actually the National Advisory Group for the LGA on procurement. What that basically is, a lot of heads of procurement from each region of the country come together and we talk procurement stuff. We say what's the impact of the new regs going to be and we bring that expertise and that knowledge and that sharing. We have little groups to say how we're going to address things like LGR, how we're going to address changes in legislation. It's just public sector local authorities coming together sharing knowledge, sharing expertise and working the way we should be really.

Nicola Robason: Fabulous. My husband might think I'm the chief of NAG in a very different way. We've had, I suppose, what aspects of the Act do you think the councils have found it maybe is easiest to implement and what areas have probably been the most challenging?

Belinda Stubbs: I think easiest bits is there's been bits of legislation we've been wanting for ages. Things like the competitive flexible where you get to design your own process rather than trying to force fit it into a certain number of stages. We can look at something and say what's the best way to do a procurement for this particular thing and we can design our process around that and make the process fit the what you're trying to buy rather than the other way around. We've been dying for that and I think people have really embraced that and are using it. We're finding new ways to make that work for us. Probably again on the less positive side of it, we've lost our DPS's so those are like mechanisms for things like school transport, buying lots and lots of high-volume repetitive things and the legislation hasn't allowed us to do that anymore so that's a bit of a challenge and we need to look at some secondary legislation to try and fix that.

Nicola Robason: Have you got any really great examples of where automation has helped free staff time up so that they can really get on with focusing on the strategic outcomes that they should be looking at?

Belinda Stubbs: Absolutely and this is one of my pet topics so you'll probably have to cut me off in an hour or so. At Hampshire when we were looking at the new Act we knew there was going to be a load more paperwork, we knew there was going to be a lot more administration, a lot more notices and we knew that we wouldn't be able to just absorb that into people's day jobs. We actually set out on a bit of a campaign. We've built ourselves a system where basically you put the information in once and rather than cutting and pasting things from a document into a notice into another document and then proofreading all of those things, lining up bullet points, editing all of that kind of stuff, we now put information to a system once and it carries through and then from that templates pop out, the notices pop straight to FTS, all of our proofreading stuff isn't necessary because it's all automatically put into the right document. My team are saving a massive amount of time. They phoned me up when they proofread something and gone I can't believe how quick that was, which you know IT systems people don't normally say oh my god this has made my life easier. So yeah we've been on an absolute campaign with our TPS system to revolutionise things and it's made a massive difference.

Nicola Robason: That sounds awesome. If there's one thing that you could encourage procurement leads to do tomorrow in order to sort of realise the benefits of the Procurement Act and automation, what would it be?

Belinda Stubbs: Come and have a chat with me and come and talk to us about the journey we've been on but I think it's about thinking about how your team is spending their time. What we end up with is a lot of really highly skilled professional people who are just becoming admin assistants and they're so buried in the paperwork. Think about how your team is spending their time, what's the split between commercial decision making and doing paperwork and if you think that split is wrong you need to do something about it and there are things you could do. So yeah, come and have a chat.

Nicola Robason: Brilliant. Belinda, thank you so much for your time today, you've been so informative and your advice has been brilliant so thank you so much.

Belinda Stubbs: Thank you.

Nicola Robason: And now we're joined with David Pattison who is the Chief Operating Officer and Monitoring Officer at Wolverhampton City Council and Nina Philippidis who is the Deputy Chief Executive and Executive Director of Corporate Services and Section 151 Officer at Gloucestershire County Council. Welcome. We did a session earlier this morning with Chief Executives, Section 151s and Monitoring Officers in what we know as the Golden Triangle. How can a really strong Golden Triangle really help with financial resilience?

David Pattison: I think for me there's a conventional approach that would say financial resilience is the responsibility of the Section 151 Officer. That doesn't work. Organisations are too complex, our financial challenges are far too wide reaching for that to work in practice. I think the strength of the Golden Triangle is how do you collectively understand the risk profile of your organisation, the financial challenges that you're facing and ultimately a financial challenge is just a financial representation of the operational challenges that you are working through and wrestling with on a daily basis. Having that strong Golden Triangle of understanding from the Chief Exec's perspective, from the Monitoring Officer perspective, the 151, what those challenges are but also coming to conclusions about how you're going to address them collectively, what level of risk are you willing to take, what level of risk do you have to take and how does that play through into your operational delivery, your decision making etc.

Nina Philippidis: I think you say if you can have a strong Golden Triangle you can work really well together and sort of manage that competing pressure that you have across your organisation. Really building on absolutely everything that's been said, it's that strategic oversight and it's seeing budget, performance and risk together. You're looking at the budget absolutely that's the financial stability but you also got to deliver for the residents in the area and alongside that that's the performance also the risk, what's coming up, actually where does that money need to go, what's the best place for the money to go. Approaching it together sharing different insights because we'll all know different things and that key thing about Golden Triangle where there's regular communication and teamwork. I think the Golden Triangle is often talked about but it's also important to mention the other statutory officers too and how you talked about that earlier. It's actually how we make sure that that's also linked in, be it the Director of Children's Services or Director of Public Health as well.

Nicola Robason: The key lessons that you've learned about making the Golden Triangle effective and as powerful as possible.

Nina Philippidis: For me I think it's really building up those relationships and that trust and that openness. One of the things that we've done back at base for me is actually sharing our worry lists, what keeps us awake at night. Actually we know what our concerns are, what our issues are and then working together and building that confidence with the team so that you know they've got your back and you've got their back. At times it's a difficult world, these are difficult jobs, it's making sure you've got that support internally but also externally. I know you talked about it earlier, making sure that you've got the sector by your side or the Monitoring Officers, lawyers like the government, actually phone a friend and actually making sure that you've got that support because these can be lonely roles.

David Pattison: I think just building on that, it's how do you come together, how do you build that trust between each other, that openness, but how do you have those challenging difficult conversations behind closed doors because you do have to disagree and you don't just agree with each other. I think that's really important but when you leave that room you present a united front and you back each other and you are hand in glove with what you've decided because that's important for your organisation, your members, your leaders and for your partners ultimately in your place.

Nina Philippidis: Somebody reflected it earlier when we were in session but actually get on with each other. I'm quite fortunate in Gloucestershire, I really enjoy working with my chief exec and my monitoring officer, it's a pleasure to get to work with them every day. I think that goes a long way if you know you've genuinely got each other's backs, you want each other to succeed, you want the organisation to be successful and doing that in a way that you can make enjoyable. It's not all doom and gloom in these jobs, we've got such a privileged position to be holding these jobs and I don't think we should lose sight of that. Being able to do that with more often than not a really supportive and committed chief exec and similar monitoring officer, that's a great space to be.

David Pattison: Absolutely and I think we're all lucky in that actually we've had experience of working in a really strong Golden Triangle.

Nicola Robason: What advice might you give to others who perhaps need to think about strengthening the triangle and what tips, what ideas could you give to them?

David Pattison: I think for me would be really working at it. I couldn't agree more about actually building that relationship. Again I'm really lucky I get on really well with the chief exec and the 151 but you have to work at it. You also have to build that credit up and it takes time. Don't rush at it, expect there will be some bumpy conversations, difficult conversations because we're not always going to agree and come up with different perspectives but it's also knowing that we've got a shared vision, we've got a shared approach, we're all trying to achieve the best for the residents in our particular area and being open and being transparent about those and doing it in an enabling can-do way showing that actually if you do say no you mean no and it's pretty rare that you'll say no, generally you'll say can't do it that way, you can do it this way, there might be another way or what's the appetite for the authority, the risk appetite, how do we manage that and share that and make sure that we've all got we're all on the same page. I think it's actually that relationship is the thing to work at.

Nina Philippidis: I completely agree and actually getting to know each other, understanding what each other's red lines are, what are the things that will push each other's buttons, certain things that we will all find more problematic than others and understanding that with each other. Even like just getting to know each other's personalities, their decision-making approaches. In Gloucestershire and I'm sure other areas we've done a lot of work on insights trying to understand our colour dynamics which actually is really important because it then you get a different perspective as to how people come to their decisions and how do you gel with or work alongside etc. Getting a deeper understanding of each other is really quite helpful but also if it doesn't feel right or something doesn't feel like it's gelling, I think being brave enough to have those conversations in a respectful way and bring external challenge in. You've got the LGA, you've got CIPFA, there's lots of other organisations doing that kind of step back, is this working for us, how do we strengthen it. I think it's quite a courageous thing to be able to do.

Nicola Robason: I couldn't agree more, I think that's so true. If somebody was just joining a triangle for the first time and they were coming in Section 151, Monitoring Officer, Chief Exec relationship for the first time, if you could give them one bit of advice what would it be?

Nina Philippidis: Do you know what, enjoy it. It is a privilege. We spend an awful lot of our time talking about the challenges and how it's difficult and those are all absolutely right it is but how fortunate are we to be able to do these jobs, to hold these personal roles with statutory responsibility and to be respected for them. Members understand these roles, organisations understand them. Enjoy it, understand who you are in the role, what are your red lines, how do you want to hold the role, what's your authentic self going into it and hold firm to that but also develop, learn from others, connect yourselves in with your treasurer societies, with your other bodies and don't be afraid to ask for help. Ultimately my advice would be just to step back and enjoy it if you're lucky to have it.

David Pattison: For me it's also be comfortable with the uncomfortable so it's not always going to be easy but actually I really like the point about enjoying it because we were just talking and one of the brilliant things about these roles is you can actually see the difference it makes to our city or the area. In Wolverhampton I can see there's a brilliant venue called The Halls actually, the work that I did had a little hand in getting reopened and I looked back, the first time I came to Wolverhampton was when I was a 19 year old student seeing gigs and if the 19 year old self had seen what I managed to help achieve alongside many others it being reopened, actually that really matters, that really gives you real job satisfaction.

Nina Philippidis: I think it's great advice to enjoy and I like getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, normalizing that feeling and then that's half the battle.

Nicola Robason: Thank you so much for joining me in conversation today. That brings to a close the session today on LGA Voices powered by Milbank and thank you so much for joining us.