BI podcast transcription: Knowsley Council


Moderator: Welcome to the latest episode of Nudges for Social Good podcast from the Local Government Association. My name is Rhian Gladman and I manage the behaviour change program here at the LGA and, as we said before, our aim here really is to demystify behavioural insights and behavioural change and provide you, in councils, with really practical projects and practical learning that you can then have a go within your own council with your own behavioural change projects. So, we like to keep it very practical, very pragmatic and I hope you get a lot of value from this conversation today. So, today I'm joined by Dave Tyrrell from Knowsley Council. Hi, Dave.

Dave Tyrrell: Good morning, Rhian. Nice to talk to you again.

Moderator: How are you today?

Dave Tyrrell: Yes. Fine, thank you. Working from home like so many people but yes, I'm fine.

Moderator: Good stuff, good stuff. Thanks for your time today, I really appreciate that. Just to kick things off, Dave, I think it would be really useful if you could say a bit more about your role at the council.

Dave Tyrrell: Yes. Yes, indeed. So, I'm the project officer focusing on assistive technology at Knowsley Council and the keyword to my role is really around promotion. Promotion of the assistive technology offer and that is both out and about in the community with residents groups, or interest groups, but also with partners and care providers, or other voluntary groups. So, there's that aspect of it, then the other key aspect of what I do is around promoting the deployment of the technology amongst social care practitioners, trying to get them to think technology very early on in their development of a package of care for somebody, rather than just going all the time for a traditional hands-on package of care. So, that's me. The keyword for me is promotion.

Moderator: Excellent stuff, excellent stuff. So, it would be really useful if you can set out really in our conversation today the behaviour change project that you did at Knowsley around assistive technology and just, sort of, tell us the story really from start to finish and, yes. So, if you could kick off with what was the original challenge? What was the behaviour you were trying to change?

Dave Tyrrell: Absolutely, yes. Well, we felt that we had a great offer to give to people. We had a good story to tell, our members had made a real commitment to assistive technology and put a lot of money behind it and we felt that we had a great AT offer. So, for our residents the equipment was free, the cost of monitoring we believed was very affordable, beginning at £1.11 per week. Now, I say we believe because £1.11 can be a lot of money to some people but we felt that was an affordable offer. We didn't limit the types of technology that we would use, if somebody needed something and we had to go and find it, we'd go looking for it. We didn't just limit it. We'd adopted a twelve-week free trial offer from March 2017, a bit of a try before you buy if you like it. And then the take-up increased by around nine users per month compared to the preceding two years. And a good thing around that was about 88% of those people signed up to continue with the service after that.

Moderator: So, your challenge really was to change the behaviour of local people to take up this assistive tech offer to help them to live independently, would you say?

Dave Tyrrell: Absolutely, yes. And the technology could help do that in all sorts of ways so in terms of health, helping people with health issues. So, for example, epilepsy sensors and epilepsy mats we could have a direct impact on that. Self-care needs, so things around medication management devices. And the basic reassurance as well of having a lifeline device where somebody was available at the touch of a button to provide some support. Our technology helped people get out into the community as well through things like GPS devices. It helped home security with things like the bogus caller alarms and then there's the well-known stuff around hazard management, things like smoke alarms and the flood alerts. And we just felt that it was such a great offer, we could help people to remain living independently in so many different ways, we were very hard at that promotion. But, despite these things about the obvious benefits of the technology, we just didn't feel that the uptake was what it should have been and our challenge was whether we didn't really understand the problem or in fact did we have a problem? That was a part of the issue. Our view really was that we should have been achieving more but for whatever reason, we weren't where we wanted to be. And I do think it's around a bit of a hearts and minds issue as well. There was lots of evidence, anecdotal evidence, as to why people might not want the technology. So, one of our major stakeholder events, stakeholders were saying to us, they gave us a lift of things which were factors which indicated the problems with the take-up of technology.

So, it included things like they didn't know what was available, having to pay even a nominal amount puts people off and one of the big things, you know, was families of people who are requiring care takes a lot of persuading that technology is the right way to take care of their loved one. And one of the classic ones for me was that older people didn't understand technology. Now, our service can be for people of all ages but inevitably because our care needs increase as we get older, the service tended to support older people more. There's this challenge that older people didn't understand technology well that's not what I found because I'd go to many groups of older people and a good proportion of them were, you know, had their smartphones, were on the internet. But those were the kind of things which we felt were some of the barriers of some of the stakeholders would tell us were barriers. So, we wanted to understand those reasons and our thoughts turned from what we were offering to how we were offering it and do we need to change to achieve greater success?

Moderator: So, you're clear on your behavioural challenge, very clear on what the behaviour is that you want to change and then you've talked there about a stakeholder group and, you know, having a meeting with them to find out what the barriers were. So, the next stage really is that you go and you find out, gather insights, do your research gathering and try and understand the behaviour, what drives it and the barriers to it. So, how did you go about gathering those insights and that research?

Dave Tyrrell: Absolutely, yes. Well, it came about at just the right time really, because we'd been pondering those issues that I just described when the opportunity came to bid for monies from the LGA's behavioural insights programme. Well, that was in the November of 2017 with the support of the council we bid for some of those monies to commission an organisation to carry out a behavioural insights investigation. And that was with a view to designing alternative interventions and supporting us to refine and better target and better communicate our offer, because as I said, we felt we were doing things well, we were working hard at it, but there was something missing. And, as I said, there was a little bit of experience within the council already through our public health team, who used behavioural insights techniques as part of their health campaign. You know, things like smoking cessation campaigns, or healthy eating campaigns, so we called on their advice as well before we submitted our bid and the significant date for us was January 2018, when we appointed the behavioural insights team to carry out that behavioural insights study on our behalf, or alongside us. And really, as I said, what we wanted from them was a deeper understanding of why our-, what we felt was a great offer, wasn't taken up more widely and advice on how to better communicate and tailor our offer. And, I think quite significantly as well, an approach of that was broader than just the eligible people, broader than just the traditional assistive technology offer. So, that was great for us, it came just at the right time, it was what we wanted.

And, in terms of focusing with the behavioural insights team and how we were going to go about things, the specific questions or the specific approach I should say is part of the way we went about the intervention is that we'd adopted a multi-method approach to answer three main questions. What are the barriers to people taking up AT? What are the existing touchpoints we could use to encourage people to take up AT?  That was a new area for me, a bit of learning for me. And then, significantly of course how we could evaluate any potential change using the existing data that we had. So, there were, sort of, four main parts in terms of what actually happened and there was the background stuff, the researching the evidence base from academic and policy research, focusing on 80 related publications, there was work around mapping referral pathways and user journeys. That was clearly to help us understand if there were any barriers but also opportunities. A massive amount of work around reviewing the available data, this was supplied by clearly the council, ourselves at the time but also our telecare service provider who was known as Homecare Link. And so, we provided lots of information around referral sources, referral numbers, installation and installation numbers. And then just finally in terms of the way we went about it is really the fieldwork element that included interviews with senior council staff, people from the telecare service provider, Homecare Link, health service managers from the CCG, there were fieldwork visits to interview adult social care staff and to observe interactions as well between the front line hospital staff, the discharge team and service users. And then just finally, there were focus groups with local residents and service users which is where we prototyped some of the proposed intervention materials.

Moderator: You mentioned earlier something really interesting, you said you were talking to the stakeholder group and there was this sense that maybe the barrier was technology itself and then when you actually spoke to residents that wasn't coming through as a barrier. I just think that's a really interesting point, isn't it? That difference in maybe the professional view of what we think the barrier is but then really getting under the bonnet really of what's driving that behaviour and what the barriers really are by talking to people. Are there any other, sort of, surprises that came out of that as well?

Dave Tyrrell: Yes, I think it is an important point. I can, sort of, in my mind's eye remember the meetings where actually sometimes it was council officers saying things like, 'No, we said we were going to communicate with people by email or put information online,' and the immediate response was 'Oh, not everybody has email or is online'. And that's absolutely true. What is absolutely true as well is that the vast majority of people do and obviously we would find the correct way to communicate with our potential service users, wouldn't just go for one route. I always thought that was quite a telling moment and it was always something which kept coming back and I always used the analogy around we don't understand, we don't have to understand the technology in great detail but we just need to be able to use it and feel its benefits and there was always the point of course around there was lots of support to help people to use the technology. So, that's why I mentioned the phrase hearts and minds, it's just an automatic assumption that, you know, the negative response taking over the positive opportunities.

Moderator: Yes, yes. That's really, really important as well, isn't it? Around the behaviour change being driven by the benefits and the positives that people experience. If it's a positive thing then there is more encouragement to keep doing the new behaviour that you're trying to encourage, isn't it? If there's a benefit.

Dave Tyrrell: Absolutely.

Moderator: I think that benefits realisation point has just been a really important project through-, Sorry, an important point through this project, hasn't it? As you said, to get the hearts and minds. I just really wanted to focus on that a bit more because its definitely the driver, being positive and having a good experience you will be more likely to continue on with that behaviour. So, excellent. Okay. So, you've done a serious amount of insights and research and data and you've done focus groups and workshops with a lot of your public sector partners, service delivery partners as well so Homecare Link and really importantly obviously, you know, local residents people who will potentially be the target audience that you want to get to use assistive technology. So, you've got all of this data and evidence, all of this rich learning that you didn't have before so how did you come to the nudge, the intervention that you actually tried out?

Dave Tyrrell: Yes. I think it was really important around talking to the stakeholders and the stakeholders are not only people in the community and partners, it's also people who are working within the council and so we identified our key activity once we'd launched the intervention was to target the touchpoints. Those touchpoints were around people who received the blue badge service, parking disability service and people who received the assisted bin collection service which is exactly as it sounds, clearly, there are people who are not able to put out their refuse bins themselves, support services for those people. And I was really fascinated by that because I had never thought about the possibility of targeting a comparatively limited number of people and that was just under nine thousand people and Knowsley has got a population of 46 thousand and our instinct always in local government is to get the message out equally to everybody. And so we focused on, as I said, the blue badges and people receiving the assisted bin collection service but also as well we went strongly with our community navigation team or community navigators who deliver the social prescribing role in the area. And then, as you would expect, we changed the way we delivered our routine offering so this is people contacting us through our website or though our first response team or social workers, practitioners dealing with clients who are interested in assistive technology. So, we focused on those routes for designing the actual intervention.

Moderator: And so, yes. There's quite a lot of stakeholders that you'd worked with there so I guess it's that real collaborative co-design approach, everyone feels part of it. Was that what you were aiming to do? Did you get good feedback from stakeholders that they were able to be involved in this process and felt taken along the journey with you?

Dave Tyrrell: I think so and I think one of the, I mentioned earlier on as part of the field work approach of the work that we did with service users and particularly through the Knowsley older people's voice via our local Healthwatch that was absolutely a fascinating outcome to that. I wasn't involved in it, quite rightly, it was done deliberately and objectively by the behavioural insights team. So, that was really, really important and the contributions made by, as I said, people within the council towards where the delivery of the offer might be more effective was really important. So, in terms of the stakeholders, we worked with to actually develop and deliver the intervention, clearly, the telecare providers themselves were always going to be super important in this process because the hope was that, as a result of the intervention, there would be an increase in demands over issues around capacity and their ability to respond so they were very, very key to the process. And not just in terms of capacity that they had the numbers there to respond but the way in which they responded as well. One of the keys things that they were asked to do, this was the telecare service provider, was to follow up a, sort of, initial enquiry. So, people may make a tentative enquiry around the use of the technology but maybe not commit to it there and then but and this is perhaps slightly a, sort of, marketing approach, Homecare Link were required to then get back to those people to follow up to say, 'Okay, well you're not going to sign up today. Well, let's come back to you a little bit further down the line.'

Our own first response team, clearly, were very, very important. They are a very highly skilled team focusing on assisting-, Oh, sorry, the adult social care service of dealing with enquiries coming in and perhaps very much the front door of the adult social care service. And they needed to understand what the assistive technology offer was and to be able to answer enquiries questions and they needed to be aware that the leaflet was going out to around these, as I said, just under nine thousand people and what it was about and what was on offer. Our own communications team were very important in the process to, not only helping in leading of the design of the leaflet but in communicating with our council members to make sure that they understood what was going on and they were able to play their role as well. And then just finally, adult social care staff as well. It would be their role to promote the offer but to do that in a way which was in line with our behavioural insights lead approach.

Moderator: Yes, yes. So, I guess to recap really, so you're clear on your behavioural challenge, you want to encourage the behaviour locally of people who are eligible for assistive technology to take up assistive technology so they can live more independently in their homes. So, you're clear on that behaviour, you've gone out and done your research, insights, data gathering, with partners, stakeholders and the wider system and also local people who you want to target with this offer to understand the behaviour, understand the barriers. You've gone away and co-designed with your partners a series of interventions in order to change the behaviour. So, what were exactly, for the audience, the interventions that you then tried to use to change the behaviour?

Dave Tyrrell: Yes. Quite straight forward, ultimately. It was the design of a new information leaflet using behavioural insight methods and techniques and sending that alongside a personal letter to the residents in the touchpoint groups that we had identified. So, that's, as I said, just under nine thousand people. That was the key intervention but alongside that was the training that we'd given to adult social care staff about the intervention and how they should use a more behavioural insights lead approach to dealing with clients who were interested in the service. And yes, I think that a copy of the leaflet I'm sure is on the LGA website.

Moderator: It is, Dave. Yes, it is, thanks for that. Thanks for, yes. It's on there, other councils can use it, it's free to, sort of, you can download it and basically use what you guys in Knowsley have done, done the hard work. So, yes. It's all up there on our website.

Dave Tyrrell: That's great. You know, Rhian, it's not to be underestimated the value of looking at the way in which you communicate. So, people might think, 'Oh, it's only a leaflet.' But it's actually quite a significant-, We mentioned earlier on that the way in which we present an offer, whether we do it in terms of a gain to the individual or in terms of a loss, it's quite important. So, in our leaflet, we took a gain frame approach where we set out the benefits to the clients of taking up the assistive technology and that it would extend their independence and safety, give them peace of mind, that the technology was low cost and was easy to use. And I always thought a lovely phrase that we used which was very un-council like, this is on the leaflet where we spoke about the technology fading into the background.

We wouldn't normally do that kind of thing-, use that kind of language on a council leaflet, so we focused on, in the leaflet, on the gains that could be made, rather than the negative side and not having technology. And we also used the technique around, sort of, I think it's called social norming, where we presented information on the leaflet which showed that actually, there are many thousands of people in those league who are already took up-, had taken up the offer, so by highlighting that lots of people are already performing the behaviour that we wanted to encourage, will hopefully make people realise that actually they're the ones who are being different. And again, unusually, we had an individual client, his face-, a picture of him and a quote from him talking about the, his positive experience of being part of the telecare service and-, because the behaviour of peers is actually a very powerful influence and people can underestimate how common a particular behaviour is, so there's an awful lot of thought that went into the leaflet and it was very powerful. And just to mention that personal letter as well, we needed to-, we felt that was appropriate to just put that alongside the leaflet when we sent it out, otherwise the leaflet might just be seen as just any other leaflet. We wanted the letter to go to Mr and Mrs-, or Mr Smith, Mrs Smith and to know that it was directed to them and we wanted them to read it.

Moderator: Yes, I think also, another point on that leaflet, Dave, did you not make quite interesting use of images and the individual you talked about is probably not the typical person you would think of needing assisted technology, use quite a different, sort of, demographic, he's a younger guy and it's, yes I just thought that was a really interesting use there of the messenger really, isn't it? The messenger effect we talk about in behaviour change. So, if you'd like to say a bit more about that please, that would be great.

Dave Tyrrell: I'd be happy to, yes. You're absolutely right, the gentleman concerned was clearly of a younger age range and he was more than happy to contribute to the leaflet and understood what it was all about and, you know, when I went to meet him, he was sort of quite a capable chap, I think he'd been a nurse for a number of years but had to retire not too long before I actually met him and the big message that he got over in his quote was around the reassurance that the, in his case, the independence alarm gives him and he had physical disability issues as well, liable to falls so we just focused on those two things. The reassurance about the alarm being able to press it and to get some support.

And you're also absolutely right about the images that we used in the centre of the leaflet, we just put nice clear pictures of four particular devices. And we picked those devices, one's a medication dispenser, one's the basic alarm, one's a smart home assistant, an Alexa or a Google device and the other's a GPS watch because we thought they would be the things which would interest people the most, rather than just, as in previous leaflets the pendant, the pendant alarm. So, we just provided information about those because it's very easy to overload people with information as a result of which they then don't do anything, so we tried to get information, even to name all of the devices that we had available then, it would have just been too much, so we just picked those four things so that we didn't overload people. And nice big, clear pictures with clear descriptions on and as I say, we felt it was very, very effective and we continue to use that design now.

Moderator: So, that's the leaflet and the personalised letter and you mentioned some training was part of the intervention as well.

Dave Tyrrell: Absolutely, yes, the head of the intervention, we went to train the adult social care staff, and they also had a leaflet, documentation for them to use to take with them to help when they were talking to people individually. And it presented again the benefits, the gain frame approach, there was a bit of a model on there explaining how-, what would happen if somebody fell and they didn't have a lifeline loan compared to if they did have a lifeline alarm and the good news story being that if you have a lifeline alarm and you have a fall in your home then you can be back in your seat and be nice and safe within a short space of time. Whereas the alternative, and this was for the social workers to use was there was a potential for a stay in hospital, so the pendant alarm helps to get a good positive response. So the big focus was on the Gain Frames, or the gains that can be achieved by people taking on the service and was also the information around the wide take-up of the technology across the borough. So that would mean more people are using it than people may think there were.

Moderator: Excellent stuff, excellent stuff. So, you've got the two interventions there to your targeted 9,000 people, plus your staff obviously, as you mentioned. So, what's the impact been? What were the results?

Dave Tyrrell: The immediate result was significant, so what I'll do, I'll just give you the facts straight out. So, compared to the three months before the intervention, the intervention itself took place over a period of three months, referrals rose by 39% and installations rose by 27% and then we did an assessment on the impact on the council's website. So compared to the five months before the intervention, page views on the website increased by 57% and average time spent on the assisted technology page increased by nearly 64%. So, those were really, really good outcomes. Now, here, the insight team advised that we are better to adopt a simple pre-post analysis measure, but it can be difficult to identify the cause or the effect of an intervention when using a pre-post design, but it becomes more plausible to claim that any changes in the outcome measure were caused by the intervention when two conditions are met, and we met those conditions and they were that the intervention has a very large effect-, well, and the percentage increase clearly did have a very large effect. And, that's more likely to happen when the intervention is introduced suddenly and with intensity. So it wasn't rolled out over a long period of time, it was just, get those letters out one day of September in 2018 and the intervention was underway. And then the second thing which makes a pre-post analysis the right way to measure the impact of the intervention, in this case, was that the pre-intervention trends and the outcome measures, don't vary very much and that was absolutely our case.

We had a steady increase in the take up of installations but it wasn't like it was up and down and up and down, so in terms of numbers, the number of new installations per month, prior to the impact, sorry, the intervention was stable around 50-60 per month but then jumped to 90-100 per month after the intervention began. And so all of that would suggest that the intervention worked as we intended. And just to say as well that since then, uptake has continued to increase steadily, we’ve got a further 602 users since the time of the intervention which ended in December 2018 and that's 13.5% of our total number of connections and you won't be surprised to know, there was a little bit of a dip in the early stages of the Covid lockdown period, for obvious reasons. But yes, so we were confident that a simple pre-post analysis was a robust way of measuring the intervention.


Moderator: Excellent stuff. Well, they're some amazing results, Dave, I mean, 39% increase in referrals with a lot of these projects we're looking at small nudges of 3-4% increase or decrease and, you know, that's a huge result. But importantly, like you say it's actually leading to the installations, it's not just you're getting a referral in and then the system's not able to work behind it, you are actually getting the installations and the fact you've got that 602 users since you've, you know, December 2018, you'd finished the project as such, so, that just speaks volumes to me, you know. Are the leaflet and the other interventions, are they just now business as norm for you, are you still using them?

Dave Tyrrell: Yes, we are still using them, we're slightly tweaking them, because we want to-, we're using more complex technology now, which is one of the stories around the impact really of the intervention, and we want to make people aware of the more complex technologies that we're using, which is things like interactive medication, compliance devices and multi-functional tablet devices, which can help clients to manage their own package of care. So, we're moving on from, not just the reactive kit, so the basic lifeline which is so, so important to the service, but is just around-, raising an alert at the moment of a crisis to the more complex devices, which help with people to manage either particular aspects of their care or indeed the whole package of care. And we do feel, in terms of impact, that there's a greater awareness of technology solutions amongst staff and residents and families and our members continue to show a great interest in the rollout of the technology and colleagues presented an update on how things are going within the assisted technology programme earlier this year.

Moderator: That's great stuff Dave, that's just such a good result, isn't it? And I just think, the way you've told that story from start to finish really clearly, how you run the projects, what you did, what you found and the results is just great. A great credit to you and the council and your colleagues. So, and how are you taking the results forward and behavioural insights forward into other areas of the council? Are you still continuing the work?

Dave Tyrrell: Yes, I'm very pleased to say that is happening. I've mentioned just then the presentation to members on assisted technology earlier this year, where they made a decision that further marketing strategy should be developed to promote the take-up of the technology but to use on learning from the behavioural insight study, another applications of behavioural insight and other cells of knowledge around the council where they do use behavioural insight, so that was really important. In fact, this is going to be a key part-, key objective in our adult social care transformation and recovery plan, recovery being post-Covid. And, it's also going to support the basic behavioural insights learning, our planned approach around promoting a technology first policy when working with our practitioners so we want them to look, and I probably hinted at this very, very early on in the conversation, that we want them to look at technology as the first solution rather than, sort of, further down the line or at the end of the process of evaluation and assessment of a client's needs.

Moderator: Yes, yes, and I guess you think of all those other areas of the council where they're looking to increase uptake, increase, you know, or change certain behaviours, just, obviously within adult social care but then there's across the council so many areas that, you know, you've got a really good example here, haven't you (TC 00:40:00) that you can advocate about and share with other parts of the council and so that's fantastic. So, as I said at the beginning of the podcast, Dave, we're really keen to give the listeners really practical tips, so, I guess, what would your top three tips be to anyone, busy, elected member, busy council officer who wants to undertake their own behaviour change project, what would your top three tips be to them?

Dave Tyrrell: Okay, I feel that data, data, data is one of the key things. It's so easy to just try and be, 'I know my area, I know what's going on', we’ve got to look at all the information which is available and the behavioural insights team are really data hungry. We provided them with as much as we had around the AT offer, the telecare contract, the performance regarding take-up, our promotional literature, we had a GIS report on areas of take-up, our policies and procedures, you've got to take it all in the round. So, as so much of what we do these days really needs to be led by data and we've got to go with a-, we're looking to use behavioural insight techniques as well. The other thing is around stakeholder engagement and I think the thing around-, I think councils generally are good at stakeholder engagement, but we need to be aware then that it may take us down areas we weren't anticipating. So for me, as I said earlier, we ended up targeting our intervention towards areas which are outside of the adult social care realm, really in terms of the blue badges and the assisted bin service or without, certainly the blue badges certainly outside the assisted technology area. And one of our favourite phrases that we use now is 'Be less council'. Be prepared to do things a bit differently, so local government, our instinct is to provide all the information that we have to service users or potential service users but it can lead to overload and then a lack of action or a response, so be prepared to do things a bit differently. And I went through the leaflet in a little bit of detail there earlier on, the leaflet just features the most interesting devices, it featured the personal testimony from the one gentleman, it left some information out, really, in order to gain peoples' interest so, be a bit different in the way you do things and be a bit less council.

Moderator: Really clear tips there for others to take away based on your learning and your experience of this project, so yes, hopefully that'll be useful for people listening to the podcast. So, I guess, we're kind of coming to the end, but final question really is what behaviours are you seeing locally changing because of Covid-19 in your communities in Knowsley.

(TC: 00:43:16) 

Dave Tyrrell: Yes, I think, well the big things we've seen, it's actually broken down some of the technology in the broad sense, technology barriers because we've all seen how it can actually work effectively, so for me, Covid has actually acted as a catalyst to the increased use of technology, so you know, within work we’re using Zoom or Teams for our meetings and I'm sure many people are using similar media for their own family use, for family get togethers, GP surgeries and consultations are now available online and people are using them, it's not such a barrier as it used to be. We use Teams technology to launch our own older people strategy, just recently, involving a wide number of people, a wide number of stakeholders and that was really successful. And one of the things as well is that residents are now approaching us around the use of technology within-, to help take care of their loved ones because they realise they can't interact in the same way or deliver care in the same way and this has led to some of the more complex technology being used, early on in lockdown, the focus was perhaps just keeping an eye or staying in visual contact with a loved one, being able to have a face-to-face conversation with them. The council now has a working group which is actively looking at how to use a behavioural insight techniques to encourage the required behaviours around Covid issues, such as self-isolation, the group have a, quite an extensive work action plan of the areas in which they need to work to promote the appropriate communications to get required behaviours and one practical out working of the work has been the policy intelligence teams re-scripting for our first response team and how when they are manning the Covid-19 helpline, they communicate with residents, so that's just things around the use of simpler language, which is good. The use of user case studies to help make-, get the message over more clearly and we've mentioned this earlier on, focussing on the benefits of following the Covid rules, which is something we've spoken about a couple of times now which is this gain frame idea. So it’s really good that Knowsley is continuing to use behavioural insights learning across a range of its services and especially at this time that help deliver better outcomes around Covid.  

Moderator: That's great to hear that yes, the council is using behaviour change techniques to encourage that adherence to the Covid-19 restrictions, so yes, that's great. And again, councils across the country will be really keen to hear more about that, I'm sure, so that's great stuff Dave, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing with us the Knowsley experience of that assisted technology project with those fantastic results. And so really, if you'd like to learn more about that particular project, I know we talked about the leaflet and intervention training for staff, all of those materials are in a report, the Knowsley project report which is on our website, which is at and if you search for behavioural insights, you'll find our page and, as I say, the Knowsley report, the interventions, the leaflets, everything is on there so you can literally pick it up and use it within your own council. And we have a host of other nudges for social good that you can learn from and use in your council on your own behaviour change projects, so many thanks for listening, please do share the podcast with your friends and colleagues and we will see you next time.